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Instead of complaining about app developers and Flatpak, maybe it's time Linux based OS developers focus on moving forward with things they are responsible for:
* Home encryption
* Authenticated boot
* Read-only /
* Atomic upgrades
It's 2023 and I still can't install and leave Linux unattended to family members and friends.
Flatpak solves real problem and it only gets better with time because it is the right infrastructure for apps on Linux.
@sonny home encryption would be a really good addition.
@sonny Imagine how much OS developers can accomplish without needing to package random-app-that-does-x 457 times
@sonny Is there an existing atomic system you’d recommend? Sliverblue or openSUSE maybe?
@Connoruiop not yet sadly :(
I have never tried openSUSE.
Mixed feelings with Silverblue. Feels beta. But it's the closest as far as I can tell.
@sonny That’s unfortunate. I’ve never tried either of them. Silverblue is something I’m interested in, but I do bug testing for pre-release KDE software and it’s messy to set up there.
KDE equivalent to Silverblue is "Kinoite".
@sonny any thoughts on Nix package manager/NixOS and how it compares to flatpak? hard to find concrete documentation on the sandboxing functions/capabilities
@eroi no clue about Nix. I only care about everyday end users.
@sonny okay...
Nix is amazing, however it isn't necessarily comparable to Flatpak. The only common things here are:
- Reproducable
- Isolated
- Cross Platform
Nix is not user friendly, and it doesn't have a good GUI implementation for now. Flatpak is trying to set a standard for GUI applications where Nix is trying to do everything. Nix CAN be sandboxed, but it's obviously way less conveniently than Flatpak's way.
@sonny
@monstur @sonny the only thing I'll add to what you said is that guix, while still being cli bound, is much more user friendly than standard nix and is akin to any other package manager. Other than that, it sounds like you know more than me about the specifics.
The main reason I initially said anything, though, was because running packages built from multiple different managers gets cumbersome, especially when it's meant to be *reproducible*.
perhaps a semi-user friendly sandboxing method for nix will be my next coding attempt.
i @sonny
fortunately now atomic/image based distro is getting popular.
@yukidream that's not nearly enough.
Let's raise the bar 
Don't forget the most important point: Accessibility.
Ease of use is by far the most important factor for the end user.
@monstur I didn't forget it. It's not the responsability of distribution developers.
Are installers and initial setup wizards not also part of accessibility? The installer might not be that important when Linux is shipped by OEMs, but the setup wizard is IMO pretty important. It's also a matter of pushing certain things. As an example: MicroOS Desktop does a way better job at promoting Flatpak than Ubuntu, which pushes snap. Also a good representational site helps :D
@sonny carbonOS (https://carbon.sh, https://gitlab.com/groups/carbonOS/-/epics/2) looks like it's being carefully designed to get this right. However the project is a one-person team and the developer is not looking for contributions at the moment so progress is not exactly fast 
️
Of course social media posts tend towards oversimplification, but I think you're missing a lot of history here. The only reason there is any app ecosystem at all in Linux is volunteers working in distributions to make a bunch of software all work nicely together. We take for granted that apps will run on 64-bit systems, or ARM (or RISC-V). You can declare all that "out of scope" now, but... we wouldn't be here if a bunch of people hadn't considered it something they cared about.
Of course, things change, and in think in general Flatpak is a good approach. But, I don't see this "get in your lane, distros" rhetoric as helpful at all.
If you think the problems you've listed are important (and I agree that they are), come work on them.
@mattdm please stop putting words into my mouth. I find it extremely dishonest, and it's not the first time.
I respect every volunteer contribution to FLOSS, past, present, and future.
> If you think the problems you've listed are important (and I agree that they are), come work on them.
I work on home encryption in GNOME.
I organize events to discuss and work on these things.
@mattdm I don't have an aggressive stance.
I'm not addressing packagers.
I'm addressing Linux OS developers who complain about Flatpak.
> I'm not addressing packagers.
>
> I'm addressing Linux OS developers who complain about Flatpak
But that's what I'm saying: Linux OS developers, in the vast majority, _are_ packagers and integrators. That's what the effort has basically _been_ for the past three decades.
Like I said, I know that social media posts tend to oversimplification. I'm certainly not intending to be ""dishonest".
I am not intending to put words in your mouth, either, but to reflect back how it reads to me when you give Linux OS developers a list of areas which you say they are (apparently restrictively) responsible for.
I'm glad to hear that. I'd _prefer_ this not to be a fight. Can you see how it _might_ sound like you meant distro developers should stop packaging and switch do doing those things?
Honestly no. I think you are projecting.
If you knew me, you would know I don't have such a narrow view on things.
You're right, I don't know you. Just responding to the message out of context. And I _have_ seen people who mean it that way.
<1/2>
the person that you are replying to IS an app developer. And has made several applications for linux.
Also there are already distros that do home encryption. There are methods for authenticated boot in linux but not via systemd (HEADS and Pureboot), there are distros that can do unattended-upgrades.
Your list above corresponds to a vision of what you and several others consider a distro should be and with what tools it should be done.
<2/2>
Nothing wrong with that.
But last I checked distros projects also have the right to make their decisions. Since they are the ones that have the actual work of creating and maintaining their distros.
The only thing that an attitude of „do as I say“, or of “Distros get in your lane” gets is throwing gasoline on a fire.
@maryjane I didn't say these things you quoted.
The post title I replied to was "Developers are lazy, ..." and is complaining about what others are doing.
I know the article that you where replying and the author is.
I stated that the author of that article is also an app developer.
And I did not directly quoted you; did not stated you said those words;
I said; "attitude of", then I wrote that part.
"is complaining about what others are doing"
So you complained back, only about distros?
Every time an app developer complains about distros, they are also complaining about what others are doing.
@sonny Home encryption, secure boot, read only root and so on existed for decades. No, it's indeed time to complain about Flatpak and similar bundle/container based software distribution systems how they are harming the FOSS ecosystem.
@federico3 it's no about existing, it's about integrating and shipping to everyday end users
@sonny They work well. Besides, they often solve problems that are not really crucial for most users.
@sonny 100% agree with you here. carbonOS is working on all these things