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Is a safe space for people?

The developer of closed his accounts on because he was harassed by people who resented him for not including a block of Gab'n co on his app..
framagit.org/tom79/fedilab/-/i
Gab is now out of Fedi, this happened thanks to admins maintaining proper instance block, not because of apps.
Remember that harassment is a major offense, no matter who's harassed. It is destructive. If you feel some behaviors are problematic, block, report, do not harass!

To be clear, that does not mean that we should tolerate facism, racism, discrimination or anything else on Fedi.
But we can fight it (and admins have done so rather efficiently so far) by staying true to what I hope are our values.
I agree (and recent history has shown it) that we're still not there for many communities.
But I believe we can be respectful human beings and create a safe place for everyone at the same time.
I hope that harassing people out has no longer a place here.

@silmathoron
> we shouldn't tolerate fascism on the fedi but we should tolerate fascists who use the apps we make specifically to get onto the fedi

your logic is really poor here. antifascism takes many forms and one such is doing what you can to stop fascists getting into places. that's what tusky did and what fedilab didn't 🤷

if we are going to "stay true to values" then that should be yeeting the fashy types wherever possible since that's antifascism, not sitting quietly and letting them in i.e. what fedilab did.

the path to being "there for many communities" is not tolerance of fascists or sympathy with those that are willing to let fascists use their platform or tools.

@pfx again, the choice of removing the block may have been wrong.
Harassing the dev for that choice is still shameful.
You can report it, attempt it to have it blocked, do whatever legal procedure against it, fine!
Do not harass people.

@silmathoron the dev should have changed their mind, it's not that hard. they doubled down, they're gonna face consequences.

@pfx OK, I'm sorry, I'll be blocking you from now on. I hope you'll still consider not harassing people in the future. Bye.

@silmathoron @pfx
Incredible to read on mastodon "they're gonna face consequences", for justifying harassment against Tom and @fedilab
We should block systematically people like that. I will do that immediately for any person justifying harassment. I start with this one.

@pfx
But those consequences should have been a bad reputation, not an angry mob.

He could still get shit for not having acted in that critical moment, but there's a difference between being forced to apologize out of a bad reputation and being treated like shit to the point of moving away.

"Yay, we kicked a guy who sinned by omission off the fedi!"

And you accomplished... what exactly? Is the fedi a better place because of it? Or you merely satisfied your thirst for revenge?
@silmathoron

@pfx @silmathoron absolutely this, a finding a middle ground when one side is pushing hard into fascism is loosing ground. You got to boot them out so everyone else is safe.

@reconbot @pfx @silmathoron The app in question actually did briefly ban login to Gab, and then when the Gab-ists complained they removed the block again. It went on to be the primary Gab app when the others got banned, until Husky appeared, as I recall.
Enabling fascists accidentally or when the work to exclude them is really high is forgiveable. When the effort is trivial and you know you can do and maintain it easily... not so much. Enabling is enabling.

@reconbot @pfx @silmathoron That said, harassment of these pilate-esque sideline people isn't warranted and is a poor use of energy. But IIRC they were describing as "harassment" when a person would say, factually, that the app was a favourite of nazis.
Sometimes the truth hurts. It was a preferred nazi app, for keystone nazi social network servers. It supported nazi networks that depended utterly on it for months. They felt safe because it had rejected blocking.

@silmathoron

> To be clear, that does not mean that we should tolerate facism, racism, discrimination or anything else on Fedi.

The people which are harressig because they don’t get a block are the real facists, as well as the admins who block instances by opinion. These people don’t want free speech, they don’t want a free internet. They want to decide for others what’s right and wrong.

“Safe place” is an #euphemism for #censorship, #intolerance and even #racism or in one word: #facism!

@silmathoron This take is so fucking exhausting it belongs on a Republican's campaign slogan. Molly coddling fash and fash enablers only signals to them that there is a space that they can slowly infiltrate by being "generally nice" and fly under the radar, recruiting their other "generally nice" friends until they outnumber you and then what the fuck are you gonna do?

Active hostility to prevent facism from taking root is the way to deal with it. Listen to WWII veterans and resistance talk about how they dealt with Nazis. I guarenfuckingtee you it was not by being nice to them.

@glitter
I am on several instances who block gab, have antifa *and* anti-harassment guidelines.
I do not see fashists slowly infiltrating them.
We are not "nice" to fashists, we report and block them on sight.
This does work on Fedi, so nothing legitimate toxic practises that do not consider the other as a human being.
Pursuing your invalid comparison, nazis were judged as criminal humans post-war, not gased in Auschwitz. That is what staying true to one's values means.

@glitter
And your comparison is invalid because we're not in a war like they were: we still have all the legal and moderation systems working, we can rely on them.
And as I said, they work.
No such things were present (or at least useful) during WWII but, as I said, they started using them again as soon as the war was over.

@silmathoron I chose #Fedilab specifically because it did not restrict my ability to use the Internet. I am not a child so do not need my software to censor for me. What I do need is for it to give me the tools to filter my own content and interactions.

I'm all for server admins and Fediverse users having flexible tools to ban/filter the content they want to see. I think it's a critical feature. But software's job is not censorship, unless its target audience is children

@silmathoron
And once people start abusing a developer because their software doesn't censor its users? Those people have become the very thing they hate so passionately.

Software must be neutral for it is a tool. The hammer must not refuse the nail, even if it is to build a prison, a gun, a pamphlet of hatred.

Why? Because the role of the hammer is not to decide for us; the burden of choice lays on our shoulders and we must welcome this burden.

Without it our choices will continue to be eroded until the popular ideals, the loud voices, they will relieve us of our burden and with it, our identity and our ability to think freely.

Once the hammer has taken to the nail and made a thing, it is then *our* burden to use or not to use the thing.

I deny the hateful pamphlet. I refuse to copy it, I refuse to carry it, to deliver it. I refuse to endorse it. I speak out against it.

I add it to the burden across my shoulders as it is myself, a person, who carries the responsibility to refuse it. Not the tool that can be used to make it.

I am not sure how to make a pamphlet with a hammer, be it a censorious one or not.

And I think it's right that instance administrators, that service providers, choose not to carry some messages. Censor, if you prefer. (I do not, because any private service is optional, I have alternatives should I wish).

Administrators and users need to be given the ability to choose what messages they propogate and receive. IRC taught me that, and how wildcards and CIDR works :-)

Once our software starts deciding for us, it will then put on the training wheels proffer the bottle of mother's milk and sit us down quietly in front of its carefully-curated set of content and we can cosume it, saucer-eyed and innocent. For free thought is no longer something was must suffer.

Underneath the different decentralized publishing solutions there are protocols for connecting to and exchanging information between members of the Fediverse, and not all Fediverse protocols can prevent people from connecting to you and exchanging information with you, i.e. the underlying Fediverse protocol you choose to use may allows unsolicited messages aka spam.

We have decades of experience dealing with spam in email, e.g. word analysis to split email into ham and spam  based on message content or message headers and grey- or whitelisting of senders of messages. However, all of these methods are there because the email protocols allows anyone to send you anything. If the email protocols where designed to allow you to vet / accept the sender before they could send you anything, there would not the spam problem we see today where 9 out of 10 emails are spam.

Zot, ActivityPub, Ostatus, DFRN, Diaspora, Matrix are among the most widely used Fediverse protocols in solutions like Misty, Zap, Hubzilla, Osada, Redmatrix, Friendica, Mastodon, Pleroma, PixelFed etc, and you should check which of them are able to offer you personally - and not just your admin - to prevent people from sending you things you do not want to receive. I use Zot based services precisely for this reason - see Zotlabs if you are interested.

@silmathoron Gab is out of fedi because they stopped federating, not because "admins maintaining proper instance block". I don't block Gab at my instance but their posts stopped appearing in my feed around May 2020.

@fuxoft they stopped federating because it was no longer worth it du to most instances banning them
todon.nl/@isolategab/105362599

@silmathoron @fuxoft yeah no, they stopped federating because their team was incompetent and they couldn't get it to work right.

@silmathoron he chose to allow fascists to communicate using his app, im finding it hard to feel any sympathy.

good riddance

@balrogboogie @silmathoron
Wait until fascists are fork Fedilab stating it's the only mobile app that stands for freespeech :blobcatglaredrink:

@iantila There's already a comment there about how someone chose Fedilab "because it did not censor me." I'm not sure how Tusky is censoring me, but apparently it must be! 🙄 @balrogboogie @silmathoron

@bright_helpings @balrogboogie @silmathoron

Imagine just chilling at your place, windows open.
Then some random obnoxious dude is cursing non-stop in the street.
So you close your windows to be at peace.
Then the dude rings at your door to tell you and every passer-by that you are oppressing him by not allowing him to express himself.

@iantila just a notif that I'll blocking you from now on, don't expect further replies. Bye.

@iantila @balrogboogie @silmathoron Somebody actually said that Fedilab Guy had to leave social media because he was "hated for making free software". There's not enough eyerolls in the world.

But this is foss closing its ranks to protect its own and to protect whiteness. So inevitable and yet still so gross.

@silmathoron
yeah you're missing some qualifiers, if you add "who allow fascists to use their app" to the end of that first sentence you can see that the context of your post is rather different.

the fedi shouldn't be a safe space to people who allow fascists to use their stuff.

particularly not when the action tusky devs took was straightforward and easy to replicate or enhance.

@balrogboogie

@pfx @balrogboogie
The discussion about Fedilab not blocking GAB has been done over and over, block was removed to keep the app available to a wider audience (Play Store). This may or may not have been a mistake in different people's opinions but it certainly does not justify harassment.

@silmathoron exactly. you're hand wringing over something whose conclusion has come and gone mate.

@silmathoron @pfx @balrogboogie lots of people asked Fedilab to block Gab. Asking isn't harassment. If the Fedilab person felt this was harassment, maybe they should have listened, instead of doubling down.

@GwenfarsGarden @pfx @balrogboogie some people may have been asking, some may even have asked nicely (I did not see any of those, though, sadly) but many were just agressing him.

@silmathoron
god forbid that people are forceful in pushing against fascism /sarcasm

"harassment bad" is fine as an argument, i don't think being a dick to people is generally a good idea.

context matters though and if you decide not to combat fascism when the opportunity is right there, well, you had it coming

@silmathoron "we should be nicer to the fash-enablers" is not a good take imo @GwenfarsGarden @pfx

@GwenfarsGarden @balrogboogie duncan you're the last one not blocked, fight the good fight my dude, godspeed XD

@pfx @GwenfarsGarden @balrogboogie
You seem to me very informed or, at least, very opinionated.
So out of my own ignorance, some questions for you :
- How do *you* decide who is 'fascist' and who is 'antifa'?
- Why is it you ( and not anyone else, like for example me ) who label and sentenced and execute the 'bad fascists' ?
- ( this one is my favorite) what power from above have ever invested you ( and you only ) of "ownership" of the whole fediverse?
Or ownership of some or all the programs used to access it ?
Is it that you feel like... *Empowered* and generally 'better' than 'they', so you do label, sentence, execute ..
Wait wait, this is something that only fascist thinking ppl do. Or a very silly and young ppl do.
But you are NOT like this, is it true? :0360: :0520:

@daalpi well my dude, i generally find it possible to distinguish whether someone is fascist by looking at how they act and if they act like a fascist, that's enough to use that label. if that's not your question, then i suggest you try doing reading because reading helps you learn what a fascist looks like.

i'll call out fascists, sure. i don't have the means to sentence or execute them, you're just saying words here. there's no such thing as a good fascist. it's me that calls out fascists and not you cause you prefer to hand wring in my notifs rather than doing things like learning, apparently.

i own the whole fediverse because it is my god given right, it relates to my hyrulean royal lineage. it's obvious from this that the pfx account owns all of the fediverse.

the ownership of all programs used to access the fediverse comes from my extensive investments in Federations Ltd. i own a 51% share and get to make all the important decisions as a result.

thank you for asking these important questions. really thought provoking stuff. i hope i've answered you fully :)

all hail @pfx , monarch of the fediverse, of the Hyrulian/Welsh line of Cadwallon

@daalpi @pfx @GwenfarsGarden @balrogboogie wait wait, we own the fedi and all its software AND have the power to execute people and nobody told me?

Other than those potentially interesting nuggets of information it's all just boring shit, "if you call fascism bad and refuse to give it a platform maybe you're the REAL fascists, no? :blobhyperthink: "

@GwenfarsGarden just a notif that I'll be blocking you from now on so don't expect further replies. Bye.

@balrogboogie I find it very sad to see people justifying harassment.
As I said they are humane and effective ways of preventing fascists and their likes from using the fediverse.
The discussion about Fedilab not blocking GAB has been done over and over, block was removed to keep the app available to a wider audience (Play Store). This may or may not have been a mistake in different people's opinions but it certainly does not justify harassment.

@silmathoron "No matter who's harassed" is a slippery slope. Fascists etc. can always say the rejection they face from their opponents is harassment too. Context has to matter.

And de-platforming matters too. Look at the problems Parler is facing now that it's been denied web services. Such people have to be denied every venue possible, it's no good to say 'this isn't my job, I'll leave it up to others." Blocking is imperfect here, why not stop them before they start.

@bright_helpings as I said, I'm not saying the choice made was the right one, I'd also have preferred that Fedilab kept the block.
Still, I'll maintain it, there is not way this can be a justification for harassment.

@silmathoron I think you have to create a safe space for yourself, if that's what you want. But mastodon has better tools for that than any other social media network I've seen yet. People shouldn't be bullied into excluding people, disengagement should be a user choice in my opinion. Instance-level blocking sort of democratizes that, while also letting people choose to go somewhere else if they don't like the decision. Don't fix what isn't broken!

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