Cool cool, @Gargron moving all @Mastodon project discussion behind a proprietary walled garden that requires agreement with Microsoft terms of service (and their analytics tracking). Now THAT makes a ton of sense. 🤦♂️
@downey @Mastodon Our bug tracker has always been on that proprietary walled garden, and everyone who has ever contributed code to Mastodon has an account on there. It only makes sense to move discussions that are so tightly related to bug tracking there so that people don't have to make an extra account, or check a separate site.
@Gargron @downey @Mastodon Mastodon is such a popular piece of software, it also has a pull effect. If you were to choose a Free Software source forge and discussion forum, you would also attract people to make the move to this platform.
It's not only a problem for purists, it also affects the independence of the project. By tying everything to GitHub or another proprietary provider, you are buying into vendor lock-in.
@bobrzasty @downey Did you every attempt to migrate issues, wiki entries, CI builds etc to another provider? The more services you use, the harder the migration because they neatly integrate into each other.
It's not entirely impossible, but it's very costly in terms of time, energy, and friction with established workflows. That's the definition of vendor lock-in (plus money, if you cannot do it all by yourself) :)
@downey Not sure if you have ever participated in this forum but it is in 95% dedicated to getting technical help with setting a Mastodon instance up for a first time or upgrade issues. There is a certain overlap between things discussed there and GitHub issues. For this, GitHub might be a better place.
I spent some time on this forum and I will not miss it as it were.
Bashing @Gargron because "Discourse hosted account" might be better than "Microsoft hosted account" is unfair.
@Gargron consolidation makes sense. The issue is to use a proprietary tool in the first place
i recommend to actually read https://mako.cc/writing/hill-free_tools.html (or watch the talk instead)
the development platform is part of the user experience when they report issuer or request features
@codeberg is a great alternative to GitHub. It's a Gitea instance hosted by a german non-profit association. it does not have as many users as github, but if that would be a criterion we should go back to twitter
@davidak @codeberg @downey Using tools that suffer from the network effect problem when you are trying to develop a tool that suffers from the network effect problem is needlessly increasing the difficulty of what you are trying to do.
Will using a custom GitLab/Gitea server add barriers for developer contributions? Yes
Will using a custom GitLab/Gitea server help Mastodon gain more users? No
@Gargron yes, i always try to do the right thing, which means increasing the difficulty to max. i respect when people are more pragmatic and therefore achieve more. sometimes that is better
i just wanted to make the point
sure a gitlab/gitea instance would be a barrier for many, but github is too. many people use mastodon because they want to avoid companies like microsoft
@selea @davidak @codeberg @downey As someone who has run my own GitLab for a few years, I definitely do not want to run my own GitLab. If that was my job, to run a GitLab, then I could see doing it, but it is a gigantic distraction, for no benefit - GitLab is not better than GitHub. And I doubt Gitea - an even smaller project - can be better than GitHub either. Being free software is not enough. It has to actually be better than its competitors.
I dont speak for everyone, or many people in either. But some people use mastodon since it is free software - and I do.
I also use it because the community is better.
However, lets say that you decide to move to Codeberg instead of github. How much easier would it be for you to provide feedback to that platform? Would the Gitea/Codeberg devs listen to your oppinions? I think so.
Anyway, in the end it is your choice, but I do hope that you reconsider :)
@mgrondin @fatboy @Gargron @selea I totally agree, see @blender if they hadn't used the tool in production before it was feature complete it would have never developed to the extent it is now .... basically displacing industry "standard" tools. Also, friends don't let friends use surveillance platforms. The more we feed the beast, the more power it has.
I dont agree.
People encourage each other with "vote with your wallet" - buy clothes where people are not harmed in the production - buy electronics where people and not harmed either.
We should "vote" with our code and product we use aswell.
If a certain Free Software product is bad - contribute with feedback, code or money.
IMHO, these are features that Git, not codeberg, lacks. By leaving out basics like issues, releases, git allowed walled-gardens to be built around this open-source technology. True decentralization will be if a project uses things like Fossil SCM so that a centralized website - proprietary or not - is not needed in the first place.
@downey @Gargron @Mastodon I don't know enough code to contribute to mastodon but I feel that it would've been better to move away from github instead of moving closer to it.
SoureHut model would've been nice. Anybody can contribute without even creating an account. An email is all that's needed. But that said, it's mastodon people who built it, I guess it's their decision. For good or bad. Though listening to what the community thinks would've been nice (not saying that wasn't done).
Yes. What is interesting is that both for #Discourse and for #Gitea there are plans to add federation support. In Gitea the first commits are already made after @forgefriends graciously made some money available from their own project budget. AFAIU they did not get @NGIZero grant, but will continue nonetheless.
And as for Discourse. The Pavilion plugin builders have shown interest to start in 2022 their #Fediverse entry.
It’s really sad IMO. I do think running a forum for project like social network makes little sense as most of people will just use masto to communicate or issue on a tracker to submit problems. It’s as useless as providing Teams/Slack to discuss development of xmpp/matrix. Looking at the masto discourse it’s pretty dead anyway so should be wiped as it wasn’t used. What worries me is the argumentation behind the move. I think projects like mastodon should actually promote and use solutions that are made within the community it co-creates. It should set an example and show that just like social networks, other tools exists and can be succesfully used outside walled gardens. Especially for a project that does exactly that. Most of the contributors/feedback givers would most likely have no problem switching to alternative, as this was most likely their motivation to use mastodon in the first place. Sure move from github is probably hard and something you can’t just do in one click, but if done (move to codeberg for example) could be a big signal for others that it is possible as well as pull people into such solution. With fediforge we might soon have federated git issue trackers.
Don’t dismiss work of others @Gargron ! Embrace the ecosystem you are part of. Don’t worry, people will follow.
For people who care about, support, or build Free, Libre, and Open Source Software (FLOSS).