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I agree with Karl Fogel here:

'I've never understood the "GPL is not free" argument. The only restriction the GPL imposes is that it prevents people from imposing further restrictions. To say that this results in less freedom has always seemed perverse to me. If the retention of monopoly is somehow a freedom to be protected, then the word "freedom" is no longer
meaningful.'

I think Stallman also said basically the same thing.

Also Karl Fogel advises against being drawn into arguments about this, which I believe has happened to @aral@ar.al before.

It's not a worthwhile argument to have.

@alcinnz some people including me believe in the freedom to license original and derivative works as proprietary

@alcinnz
Its a different freedom from say, the BSD license. The GPL protects user freedoms, the BSD license protects developer freedoms.

@UberGeek

@alcinnz

As a developper, I integrate a piece of software in mine, makes me an user of this foreign software. So... GPL protects me as well

@UberGeek @alcinnz Suppose there are 50 million programmers worldwide.

50 million / 7 billion = 0.71429% of people are programmers.

@kk @UberGeek @alcinnz but those 0.7% people's work is what the licence should protect

@meka @UberGeek @alcinnz And the majority of those 0.7% have not recognized their influence and have been terrible stewards of it, selling it to corporations and whatnot at the expense of all computer users. I find copyleft a fair tradeoff while those 0.7% sort themselves out and become more responsible.

@meka @UberGeek @alcinnz Don't get me wrong, non-copyleft licenses grant users the same useful freedoms as copyleft ones, but they just don't protect those freedoms in the current context.

@meka
Depends on which freedoms you care about.

Personally, I care more about user freedoms than I do developer freedoms.

@kk @alcinnz

@UberGeek what does "user freedom" means? Consider GPL and BSD licenses. How does one protect the user who is not developer and the other doesn't? @kk @alcinnz

@meka @kk @alcinnz The GPL explicitly grants a set of freedoms to all users of the software: Freedom to use, freedom to examine, and freedom to modify and any all code under the license.

The BSD explicitly allows developers the freedom to not share with users the code, if they desire.

Neither choice is "wrong" per se. They are just different ways of applying a different set of freedoms.

@UberGeek ah I see. When you say developers you mean only authors of the software. I thought developers as in global. Makes sense now, thanx @kk @alcinnz

@meka @kk @alcinnz So, to reply to this again, and to your later reply: Your license should protect whomever you want to protect: Yourself only, developers in general, or users in general. None of wrong, per se.

@UberGeek And that has been the most I actively try to convince people of.

Because it's true, the argument comes down to different definitions of "freedom".

@alcinnz The reasoning is simple. It is viral. Free projects under any permissive license (effectively less restrictions) can not use or interact with software under it.

@alcinnz gotta say: personally, i prefer having smaller projects and libraries under smth like mit and larger projects under gpl.

having said that, i agree.

it's like the tolerance paradox. if you tolerate ideas that reject tolerance (like fascism), then at the end it's (1) useless, (2) intolerance wins.

same goes for free software. if you wrote an important piece of software only for it to be proprietized by someone else, that's not really a good thing for either free or open-source software. ->

@alcinnz <- this is also why i was _extremely_ mad when oracle sent openoffice.org to the apache foundation.

like, doing _nothing_ would be a better option than that.

a more conspiratorial part of me thinks that it might have even been a deliberate move on oracle's part, something of a "if we can't have you, then no-one will" kind of thing.

@alcinnz afaik openoffice.org used to be a sun microsystems project that had a proprietary version and a gpl-licensed open source version.

when sun was bought by oracle (which didn't have a lot of interest in openoffice), it decided to gift the project to the apache foundation under the terms of the permissive apache license.

as a result, the source code, which previously only sun/oracle could use for a proprietary product, became available for everybody to do so. ->

@alcinnz <- (luckily, it seems that we've avoided the fate i was dreading, though, in that most people still use either oo.o or libreoffice and not a proprietary fork.)

@devurandom You've missed the part where they did it only after LibreOffice got traction and found its way into the distributions.
I'm actually not sure if they included the StarOffice code in there…

@alcinnz You're not wrong, but to many "Freedom" does mean free to exploit those less fortunate, less intelligent, or certain shades of flesh tones, or whatever ever differences they dream up in their now fragmented and certifiably insane societies to separate themselves from some group of people who are now safe to murder rape and pillage to their hearts content.

In other words, #humans

@alcinnz Strongly resembles paradox of intolerance.

GPL is intolerant of intolerance.

@alcinnz Ancaps and other hyperindividualists tend to be congenitally incapable of learning the difference between positive freedom and negative freedom. ("freedom to" and "freedom from"), and they're not very big on social freedom, they only understand economic freedom which leads them to horrible things like supporting corporations against the public interest.

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