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Why you do not use XMPP?

Please share your opinions.

I myself have XMPP accounts but almost never use it as my friends are not there at the moment (since years).

My XMPP account is purplesky@movim.eu. You can say hi to me there!

@ademalsasa I opened a xmpp account in advance. In case people around me decide to wake up and start looking for alternatives for the dreaded WhatsApe.

@ademalsasa exactly the same situation. I have xmpp client always running, because I wish it spreads more.

@ademalsasa stepan@skorpil.cz, I just added yours to my roster...

@ademalsasa I do use XMPP.. but I would also add a variant "the clients have poor UX or missing features"

@zhoreeq @vae @ademalsasa Check the blabber.im client on android.. pretty slick!

@caos @zhoreeq @vae @ademalsasa

Yes blabber is a fork of conversations, so no denying that it's very good..

@caos hey, I use Conversations too and yes it is very user friendly.

@Aman9das @zhoreeq @vae

@ademalsasa as a recovering Apple user who's using mostly Signal, I do feel that the xmpp clients I've tried so far are pretty minimal. Yeah you get typing indicators, read receipts but not things that most users enjoy like being able to react to a particular message. @caos @Aman9das @zhoreeq @vae

@ademalsasa I don't use XMPP because no one that I know uses it and I found encryption to be hard to set up.

@hbenjamin @ademalsasa Encryption is default on most (all?) SERVERS today. If you want E2EE it's enabled by default on a lot of clients.

@hund I can confirm I am using OMEMO on Movim just few minutes ago. It is enabled by default.

@hbenjamin

@ademalsasa
And I can confirm that I started chatting with a friend on movim both using Dino (my server is on Snopyta) and the OMEMO was off by default. But turning it on is a matter of a single click on a lock icon right near the textbox you are typing in.

@hund @hbenjamin

@ademalsasa @hund @hbenjamin

Just logged into my Dino and saw this. It seems #Conversations app encrypts the content but somehow does not do it in a conventional way as both #Dino and #Siskin consider the messages as unencrypted (red open lock)

#xmpp #encryption

@Mehrad @ademalsasa @hbenjamin It wasn't sent to that client and you can't therefore read it. That's how E2EE works.

@hund
I understand that part, but the confusing part is the red open lock icon which indicates that the message is unencrypted.

@ademalsasa @hbenjamin

@Mehrad
I agree it could be confusing, but it's technically correct. The text you are seeing is not encrypted, which is why you can see it. The same message has an encrypted part that is not being displayed.
@hund @ademalsasa @hbenjamin

@mattj
Thanks for the comment. I'm not XMPP-savvy enough to know how the OMEMO works and how the keys are exchanged to either parties. I didn't even know that one "message" can have two distinctive parts (one encrypted message, and one unencrypted placeholder). If this is true, this sounds such a big overhead that every single message is shipped with extra attached text. Is there any resources you can point me to to learn more?

@hund @ademalsasa @hbenjamin

@Mehrad
The link in your message explains OMEMO and also links to the XEP where the protocol is documented.

That a message can convey multiple things is an integral part of XMPP. It's how we can evolve the protocol without fragmenting the network. Whether to include this fallback is up to the sender, it's not mandatory. The alternative is older clients silently ignoring messages.

Overhead? Compared to the rest of today's internet, a few bytes of text are nothing 🙂
@hund @ademalsasa @hbenjamin

@Mehrad @hund @ademalsasa @hbenjamin
Clients are gradually adding support for xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0380.h which allows them to understand that a message is encrypted even if they don't understand the protocol/algorithm. That would allow them to produce a nicer UI (e.g. localized, rather than whatever text the sender client adds).

Sending clients could probably be smarter too... e.g. stop including the fallback once they receive an encrypted reply (i.e. the recipient is actively using OMEMO).

@Mehrad @ademalsasa @hbenjamin The message is not using E2EE because it's just a notice information the client that you can't read the message. If it would be E2EE you wouldn't be able to see what's going on.

@hund

I personally think the Matrix approach is much better. If the message is encrypted, the client shows the error that “cannot decrypt” rather than sending additional payload and showing unencrypted sign and etc.

@ademalsasa @hbenjamin

@Mehrad
The overhead of matrix is much more tho. The clients and servers consume much more resources.
That UI bug with the open shield needs to go away of course. The new omemo spec will fix it. Its already written but not deployed.
@hund @ademalsasa @hbenjamin

@hund

OMEMO is encryption too, but what is Movim? A client ?
I think, that Gajim is working well with encryption

@hbenjamin @ademalsasa

@alinka @hund @hbenjamin yes, both Movim and are available on .

NB: nice to know you use LineageOS!

@hund "a lot of clients" is not the same is "part of the standard".

@hbenjamin @ademalsasa In Conversations on Android OMEMO seems to be switched on by default.

@ademalsasa I'm there but my friends, family and colleagues are somewhere ells.

@ademalsasa I don't think that XMPP has a good future, because Matrix is - for my opinion - way better. And I only know about 1-3 XMPP-users and everyone of them uses Matrix too.

@joelschurter @ademalsasa Is that your argument? You base facts on personal options?

@hund
I've only told my thoughts about this. If you have other thoughts, it's fine, but you don't have to tell me that my thoughts are wrong. These are okay thoughts, not facts.
@ademalsasa

@hund @joelschurter @ademalsasa a messaging protocol's survival depends on people using it. If users perceive Matrix as a better option, that is a useful and very relevant data point. Here, facts ("death" of XMPP) are a consequence of opinions (using Matrix instead).

@hund @joelschurter @ademalsasa

I think that is a viable observation. It's not like "facts" or a huge argument.

I think one of the biggest problems with XMPP right now is that it's a community that isn't really interested in trying to become what matrix is heading off too.

Matrix is suceeding really well now too

@christoffer @joelschurter @ademalsasa Matrix is a Discord-clone, XMPP is something completely different.

@hund @christoffer @joelschurter @ademalsasa

totally wrong - Matrix is an open decentralized communication protocol;

@hund @joelschurter @ademalsasa

Element's system is kind of it's own thing

But it's not as easy to just equate matrix to element anymore as there are so many new clients out now of high quality.

I've personally tried to engage in the XMPP community. But all I met was a dying breed strongholding a protocol that I feel is not something I could push to people as the answer to instant messaging. Particurarly when we have protocol like matrix that does all the right things for effective change

@hund
It looks like you've never tried matrix before. Take a fast homeserver (for example matrix.sp-codes.de) and SchildiChat as a Client, you'll be happy.
@christoffer @ademalsasa

@hund I like XMPP, but clients are not so polished as Matrix ones, what makes it a hard time for newbies. My wife consider Blabber "way too difficult to use" when she wants to send an audio message, for example. Not to mention things as the OMEMO, that simply does not work when we try to log in a new device to reply old messages.

@selea @christoffer @joelschurter @ademalsasa

@hund Not bad, but still an issue for some: no reply function, only mention. Sending audio/video message needs an extra clicks (one to start, one to finish and one to send) etc.

In a server side, it is better at my view. It is simpler, faster and lighter. But I miss some specifications and the clients need too much polishing to compete directly.

@selea @christoffer @joelschurter @ademalsasa

@hund hello Hund, what is your XMPP handle? I've shared mine above and I hope we all can be friends.

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