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many white cishet folks in the FLOSS sphere live the claim of software freedom (or freedom in general) as a tool for them to emancipate themselves from the small dick syndrome they suffer from

So they wanto to use the tech to enslave the tech illiterate, because that's how they feel realized

That's why the free software movement brought us to the GAFA

So Gnome rejecting their precious contributions because they have a vision of the computer for the grandmas sends them bonkers

@abbienormal That's a really skewed view of things. Nobody enjoys enslaving the tech illiterate. Free software should be user friendly, no question about that.

@abbienormal Optionally-enabled features is not enslaving the tech-illiterate. Actually, it's quite the opposite of that. How many things do you have to resort to the terminal to do in GNOME? In KDE I barely have to touch the terminal because everything is just a few clicks away, whereas in GNOME I always have a terminal window open.

@abbienormal As an example of that, if you click on an executable inside Dolphin you get a warning and if you approve then it executes it.

On the other hand, Nautilus refuses to do anything and says "unknown format." The feature to execute programs was removed from Nautilus over "security concerns." That's not user-friendly, that's very patronizing and very anti-user.

@abbienormal Us tech people shouldn't focus on dumbing everything down so people understand it, we should focus on presenting complex computing concepts in full, but in an intuitive and easy-to-understand way so that people can learn them easily.

Nobody is born knowing how to use the mouse or keyboard, these are learned skills. Similarly, using any desktop environment, whether that be GNOME or KDE or Sway, is also a learned skill.

It's time we respect the user as a thinking being who actually wants to do powerful stuff instead of a senile grandmother. Because most computer users aren't senile, they are highly intelligent and it would be an insult to patronize them by removing features they use.

@abbienormal And knowing how to program is not a sign of privilege. I love programming because anybody with a computer, an Internet connection, and a decent knowledge of English can do it. Think about how much more empowering it is to think "oh this thing doesn't work, I just need to learn a bit of C++ and Qt and fix it, or I can donate some money so they can hire someone to fix it" versus "oh this thing doesn't work, but the people who made it don't care so I'll just have to put up with it."

@abbienormal KDE isn't some kind of nerd cult like you say it is, the KDE design team makes conscious decisions based on user testing of tech-literate AND tech-illiterate users and makes usability its #1 goal. The slogan of KDE is "simple by default, powerful when needed," not "KDE is for power users who want to enslave the tech illiterate."

GNOME on the other hand seems to make design decisions arbitrarily based on what the GNOME maintainers THINK grandmas want, rather than what grandmas actually want.

@abbienormal I'm looking through your profile a bit.

You link to the article "On FOSS as a capitalism-like structure," which describes a method of organization very similar to that of the GNOME project, and very dissimilar to that of the KDE project.

GNOME is capitalist is because it's run by a group of capitalists, in fact it's run by the huge bureaucratic tech corporation IBM.

On the other hand KDE values everybody's opinion equally (whether you are user, designer or developer) and never, ever tells anybody "if you don't like it, go elsewhere." Instead, the KDE developers tell people, "if you don't like it, you can fix it, or ask for it to be fixed and wait for a core developer to come along to it!"

You apparently use Guix. You realize that Guix is one of the least accessible operating systems, right? It requires completely free hardware to run - which most people, including me, cannot afford. It also requires a decent knowledge of Guile Scheme to administrate.

@jwinnie

yes, Gnome is suppiorted by some corporations

As is the Linix kernel and the Gcc

As for the article, you didn't understand shit if what it argues

"if you don't like it, you can fix it," is exactly what that article criticizes

so yeah, your pointing to "capitalism" is entirely ideologic as the spoiled brat you are

read it again. You didin't get it

@jwinnie

As for Guix I moved away from it a couple of years ago bu I don't see how this matters, really

@jwinnie

and finally "if you don't like it, go elsewhere" is perfectly fine

You hate it ? Too bad for you

But this idea that if something doesn't accept your shit then it's not democratic is a tantrum by spoiled kids (that you learned from Stallman and decided you loved it)

@jwinnie

exactly

hey have a vision

what's wrong with that ?

What's wrong with that is that you don't like their vision

You'd love them to acccept shit YOU like and that, to you, would be freedom

Because that's freedom how ypu mean it

YOUR dictatorship

As for KDE, kudos to them

@jwinnie
I'd like to know the tech illiterate people who partecipate in the project, though

@jwinnie

> "And knowing how to program is not a sign of privilege"

there

you said it

yes it is

read again the article you found on my profile

in YOUR vision you need to be able to be a certain kind of person, not only to use a computer

but to exist !

And if someone refuses, you'll scream to dictatoship !

"a computer, an Internet connection, and a decent knowledge of English" is assuming a WHOLE LOT

you piviledged brat !

@abbienormal It makes no sense what you're saying. I'm not going to waste my time arguing with you further unless you calm down and make cogent arguments.

@jwinnie

I AM making cogent arguments !

It's just that you're not used to them !

You are used to hear tha same soothing (to you ) reassuring shit

And when you run into anything slightly different, than it "makes no sense"

And then you scream about dictatorship

@abbienormal Democracy is not my vision, it's not your vision, it's not anyone's vision. Democracy is the willingness to compromise and back down in the face of intense disagreement.

KDE is great because it's a democracy, it gives everyone equal say in how things are run. I've been in some UX discussions with the KDE team members and peoples' ideas are rejected regularly. But peoples' ideas are rejected through nice, rational discussion, rather than the "I'm right you're wrong" attitude that I (and many others) have encountered with some GNOME developers. Look, GNOME is great, KDE is great, but KDE is my preference because of their decision-making process. That's all.

@jwinnie

ah well

you started with "Gnome people are arrogant, KDE people are humle"

You are arrogant

And you belong to a group of people who've been arrogant consistently for more than 20 years

@abbienormal Okay, maybe I used too strong of a word. That's not the point. I don't belong to any group, I speak for myself and myself only. And I am a believer in the power of democracy.

@jwinnie

according to a quite naive definition of "democracy"

@abbienormal Democracy has a tendency to not allow anyone to be arrogant, because everyone's opinion matters the same amount. KDE embraces democracy by allowing people to speak their minds and considering everyone's input seriously. GNOME does not embrace democracy as much - of course it's still a great desktop environment, and way better than anything proprietary - but enough that I would prefer contributing to KDE.

@jwinnie

> "allowing people"

the point is which people ?

People ending up in KDE is a certain kind of people

Your arguments overlook completely a set of matters that discriminate people

So what you are callign democracy is actually an oligarchy, at best

This has plagued the Stallman's though since its inception and this is what the article on my profile is about

You should give some time to this

@abbienormal

You have a point there. We need to broaden the hacker culture to include less privileged people. This is something I have thought about a lot.

But the way to include more underprivileged people is not to get rid of democracy, it's to give underprivileged people the tools to participate in democracy effectively.

@jwinnie

and "if you don't like it, you can fix it" is where the problem originates

that's not democracy

it's a scam

@abbienormal Then what does GNOME do instead to promote "true" democracy?

@jwinnie

For once, it's catering to a demographic that has been overlookef, traditionally, by the regular FLOSS projects

The exclusion you're so upset about Is protecting exactly that

You, with your naivete, belong to a priviledged group and your "democracy" will produce more exclusion

@jwinnie

It's enforcing a code of conduct and excluding people who feel threatened by It

So doing it's making a safe ennvironment for those few minorities people skilled enough to partecipate

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@jwinnie

no, it wouldn't be patronizing

let them be who they are

> "we should focus on presenting complex computing concepts in full"

that's YOUR vision. It's Y O U R S

Do you understand that ?

You are obsesses with POWER because that's what defines you. The anguish of being powerless

And you'd love ALL the computers in the world to cater to you small dick syndrom

If they don't you scream to dictatorship

this is ridiculous !

@jwinnie

and what does a user know if they want to execute a program ?

Thah assumes way too much about them

They'd end up clicking yes without looking every time

You "freddom" people don't get the user experience story

@jwinnie

I don't need to resort to the terminal even ONCE in Gnome

I've been using it for about 10 years now

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